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Thats what we will get to.

Friday, August 12, 2005

I think this guy is dead on


by Vicotr Hansen

First the terrorists of the Middle East went after the Israelis. From 1967 we witnessed 40 years of bombers, child murdering, airline hijacking, suicide murdering, and gratuitous shooting. We in the West usually cried crocodile tears, and then came up with all sorts of reasons to allow such Middle Eastern killers a pass.




Yasser Arafat, replete with holster and rants at the U.N., had become a “moderate” and was thus free to steal millions of his good-behavior money. If Hamas got European cash, it would become reasonable, ostracize its “military wing,” and cease its lynching and vigilantism.

When some tried to explain that Wars 1-3 (1947, 1956, 1967) had nothing to do with the West Bank, such bothersome details fell on deaf ears.

When it was pointed out that Germans were not blowing up Poles to get back lost parts of East Prussia nor were Tibetans sending suicide bombers into Chinese cities to recover their country, such analogies were caricatured.

When the call for a “Right of Return” was making the rounds, few cared to listen that over a half-million forgotten Jews had been cleansed from Syria, Iraq, and Egypt, and lost billions in property.

When the U.N. and the EU talked about “refugee camps,” none asked why for a half-century the Arab world could not build decent housing for its victimized brethren, or why 1 million Arabs voted in Israel, but not one freely in any Arab country.

The security fence became “The Wall,” and evoked slurs that it was analogous to barriers in Korea or Berlin that more often kept people in than out. Few wondered why Arabs who wished to destroy Israel would mind not being able to live or visit Israel.

In any case, anti-Semitism, oil, fear of terrorism — all that and more fooled us into believing that Israel’s problems were confined to Israel. So we ended up with a utopian Europe favoring a pre-modern, terrorist-run, Palestinian thugocracy over the liberal democracy in Israel. The Jews, it was thought, stirred up a hornet’s nest, and so let them get stung on their own.

We in the United States preened that we were the “honest broker.” After the Camp David accords we tried to be an intermediary to both sides, ignoring that one party had created a liberal and democratic society, while the other remained under the thrall of a tribal gang.

Billions of dollars poured into frontline states like Jordan and Egypt. Arafat himself got tens of millions, though none of it ever seemed to show up in good housing, roads, or power plants for his people. The terror continued, enhanced rather than arrested, by Western largess and Israeli concessions.

Then the Islamists declared war on the United States. A quarter century of mass murdering of Americans followed in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, East Africa, the first effort to topple the World Trade Center, and the attack on the USS Cole.

We gave billions to Jordan, the Palestinians, and the Egyptians. Afghanistan was saved from the Soviets through U.S. aid. Kuwait was restored after Saddam’s annexation, and the holocaust of Bosnians and Kosovars halted by the American Air Force. Americans welcomed thousands of Arabs to our shores and allowed hundreds of madrassas and mosques to preach zealotry, anti-Semitism, and jihad without much scrutiny.

Then came September 11 and the almost instant canonization of bin Laden.

Suddenly, the prior cheap shots at Israel under siege weren’t so cheap. It proved easy to castigate Israelis who went into Jenin, but not so when we needed to do the same in Fallujah.

It was easy to slander the Israelis’ scrutiny of Arabs in their midst, but then suddenly a few residents in our own country were found to be engaging in bomb making, taking up jihadist pilgrimages to Afghanistan, and mapping out terrorist operations.

Apparently, the hatred of radical Islam was not just predicated on the “occupation” of the West Bank. Instead it involved the pretexts of Americans protecting Saudi Arabia from another Iraqi attack, the United Nations boycott of Iraq, the removal of the Taliban and Saddam, and always as well as the Crusades and the Reconquista.

But Europe was supposedly different. Unlike the United States, it was correct on the Middle East, and disarmed after the Cold War. Indeed, the European Union was pacifistic, socialist, and guilt-ridden about former colonialism.

Hundreds of thousands of Muslims were left alone in unassimilated European ghettoes and allowed to preach or promulgate any particular hatred of the day they wished. Conspire to kill a Salmon Rushdie, talk of liquidating the “apes and pigs,” distribute Mein Kampf and the Protocols, or plot in the cities of France and Germany to blow up the Pentagon and the World Trade Center — all that was about things “over there” and in a strange way was thought to ensure that Europe got a pass at home.

But the trump card was always triangulation against the United States. Most recently anti-Americanism was good street theater in Rome, Paris, London, and the capitals of the “good” West.

But then came Madrid — and the disturbing fact that after the shameful appeasement of its withdrawal from Iraq, further plots were hatched against Spanish justices and passenger trains.

Surely a Holland would be exempt — Holland of wide-open Amsterdam fame where anything goes and Muslim radicals could hate in peace. Then came the butchering of Theo Van Gogh and the death threats against parliamentarian Hirsi Ali — and always defiance and promises of more to come rather than apologies for their hatred.

Yet was not Britain different? After all, its capital was dubbed Londonistan for its hospitality to Muslims across the globe. Radical imams openly preached jihad against the United States to their flock as thanks for being given generous welfare subsidies from her majesty’s government. But it was the United States, not liberal Britain, that evoked such understandable hatred.

But now?

After Holland, Madrid, and London, European operatives go to Israel not to harangue Jews about the West Bank, but to receive tips about preventing suicide bombings. And the cowboy Patriot Act to now-panicked European parliaments perhaps seems not so illiberal after all.

So it is was becoming clear that butchery by radical Muslims in Bali, Darfur, Iraq, the Philippines Thailand, Turkey, Tunisia, and Iraq was not so tied to particular and “understandable” Islamic grievances.

Perhaps the jihadist killing was not over the West Bank or U.S. hegemony after all, but rather symptoms of a global pathology of young male Islamic radicals blaming all others for their own self-inflicted miseries, convinced that attacks on the infidel would win political concessions, restore pride, and prove to Israelis, Europeans, Americans — and about everybody else on the globe — that Middle Eastern warriors were full of confidence and pride after all.

Meanwhile an odd thing happened. It turns out that the jihadists were cowards and bullies, and thus selective in their targets of hatred. A billion Chinese were left alone by radical Islam — even though the Chinese were secularists and mostly godless, as well as ruthless to their own Uighur Muslim minorities. Had bin Laden issued a fatwa against Beijing and slammed an airliner into a skyscraper in Shanghai, there is no telling what a nuclear China might have done.

India too got mostly a pass, other than the occasional murdering by Pakistani zealots. Yet India makes no effort to apologize to Muslims. When extremists occasionally riot and kill, they usually cease quickly before the response of a much more unpredictable angry populace.

What can we learn from all this?

Jihadists hardly target particular countries for their “unfair” foreign policies, since nations on five continents suffer jihadist attacks and thus all apparently must embrace an unfair foreign policy of some sort.

Typical after the London bombing is the ubiquitous Muslim spokesman who when asked to condemn terrorism, starts out by deploring such killing, assuring that it has nothing to do with Islam, yet then ending by inserting the infamous “but” — as he closes with references about the West Bank, Israel, and all sorts of mitigating factors. Almost no secular Middle Easterners or religious officials write or state flatly, “Islamic terrorism is murder, pure and simple evil. End of story, no ifs or buts about it.”

Second, thinking that the jihadists will target only Israel eventually leads to emboldened attacks on the United States. Assuming America is the only target assures terrorism against Europe. Civilizations will either hang separately or triumph over barbarism together. It is that simple — and past time for Europe and the United States to rediscover their common heritage and shared aims in eradicating this plague of Islamic fascism.

Third, Islamicists are selective in their attacks and hatred. So far global jihad avoids two billion Indians and Chinese, despite the fact that their countries are far tougher on Muslims than is the United States or Europe. In other words, the Islamicists target those whom they think they can intimidate and blackmail.

Unfettered immigration, billions in cash grants to Arab autocracies, alliances of convenience with dictatorships, triangulation with Middle Eastern patrons of terror, blaming the Jews — civilization has tried all that.

It is time to relearn the lessons from the Cold War, when we saw millions of noble Poles, Romanians, Hungarians, and Czechs as enslaved under autocracy and a hateful ideology, and in need of democracy before they could confront the Communist terror in their midst.

But until the Wall fell, we did not send billions in aid to their Eastern European dictatorships nor travel freely to Prague or Warsaw nor admit millions of Communist-ruled Bulgarians and Albanians onto our shores.

— Victor Davis Hanson is a military historian and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. His website is victorhanson.com.




* * *

38 Comments:

Blogger Saleha said...

:)

3:25 PM  
Blogger MisFitToy said...

My M50's locked and loaded to make Al Queda do the macarena. Wow! What an articulation of the realities of our world. It conjurs up the images of the sweets the PA gave out as the populace celebrated with dancing in the streets at the news of 911 attacks against the good ole US of A.

This one was a really, really good read. Thanks, Callie , for sharing. I was talking about your blog entry today with a Jewish buddy of mine at the hospital today while we were working on some IT stuff. Our other buddy aliya'd to Israel and he and his family are wearing orange and supporting the settlers' plight.
It boggles the mind how stupid the world has been about the extremist muslims. I have a muslim buddy, and he's not inclined at all to blow things up, but a contributing member of society.
This was an awesome article. Again, thank you. Communicating the truth protects little ones like the curly-haired blond rugrat on my lap. This shirley temple look-alike needs a world without the terror of what is common in Israeli life. Spread the word, Callie!

5:50 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

I dunno misfitoy I am so anti gun its hard for me to get past that first sentence.

But its nice that you stop by, I really am happy to see you.

Take care and have a nice weekend.

1:19 AM  
Blogger MisFitToy said...

Just kidding about the gunplay of course...

6:47 AM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

Oh I was only teasing you misfitoy!
Thanks for your kind word!

1:28 PM  
Blogger EXSENO said...

This man has a lot of very informative things to say doesn't he.

I hope you don't hate me for it but I'm pro-gun, for several reasons. The bad guys will always get them anyway Callie.

5:11 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

hey you are entitled to your opinion, I disagree but you have a right to think for your self!

7:57 PM  
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8:22 PM  
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8:41 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

yikes spam!

11:17 PM  
Blogger Me said...

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3:45 AM  
Blogger BarbaraFromCalifornia said...

Thank you for such an informative and passionate post.

I am glad to have found your blog.

10:16 AM  
Blogger MisFitToy said...

At Church today, our pastor told us how the evangelical pastors influenced the Balfour declaration and then the league of nations and UN to create a state for the Zionists. Pastor was just in the latest JEWISH TIMES magazine in and interview about recent events and Jews for Jesus. My dad has been on the cover of the same magazine. When the sermon started, I was a bit worried that the slant would be more of a liberal Christian religious overtone, but it was refreshingly pro-Israel and touched only briefly on the Gaza situation.
After fasting today and praying, it has been hard swallowing the news of the many settlers who have left their homes weeping. I worry about the gravesites left behind. I struggle with how strongly I feel over folks I don't know, across such a long distance. I wonder how my Jewish friends feel as they sat in Synagogue this weekend..did the rabbi support the pullout or condemn it? With the commemoration of the destruction of the temple thousands of years ago,this same time has a prophetically sobering moment in my soul. Methinks the average bear in America and Europe has no idea of the background nor depth of this historical action this weekend. To see the soldiers rolling up the Israeli flags at settlements wrenches something in my gut.

5:16 PM  
Blogger Elder of Ziyon said...

VDH's columns are always dead-on right.

8:15 AM  
Blogger mojoala said...

I bet Republicans don't read his stuff....

11:54 AM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

Misfittoy,

Well I think the government there knows what is best. They were elected to do the right thing, lets hope that the withdrawal is in the best interests of everyone involved.


One thing is for sure, enough people have died.

1:24 PM  
Blogger dag said...

I drop in sometimes to refresh my sense of normalcy.

I remember Shabat dinners on the roof-top, the singing, the dancing down the road to the Old City on Jerusalem Day, the Memorial Days at Ha Kotel.

I remember Martin's eyes dangling on his cheeks as he lay on the pavement with his head smashed in; the Polish guys with their legs blown across the street; the nails that flew past my head by the post office; and the old duffer who used to sell me potatos at the Carmel Market, singing "A kiss is but a kiss, a smile is just a smile...."

Next year in Jerusalem.

2:52 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

Hi Dag, I am not quite sure what you mean exactly by that but as long as you know I suppose thats all that matters.

3:08 PM  
Blogger PsychoToddler said...

That is a great article. Needs to be spread around more. Unfortunately, those who hate the Jews will continue to do so regardless of history or common sense.

3:14 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

You know what Cally, I'm gonna call you out on this. Telling everyone how "poorly" the US treats Isreal is such a load of CRAP. Yeah, we treated Isreal like crap for the tune of:

31,341,000,000+ (billion) US Dollars between 1994 - 2003 for a total population of 6,276,883 (million) people. Thats a WHOLE lot of money to be giving to such a SMALL country.

Comparitively at the same time the US was giving 5,000,000,000 (billion) to a population of 4,000,000 (million) of Palestinians, who many are living in humanitarian disaster area. Not too many Isreali Jews living in pup tents are there?

Oh, and I didnt make these numbers up. They came from the US Government foreign Aide Accounting office.

http://www.usaid.gov/faqs.html#q7

linked me to

http://esdb.cdie.org/cgi-bin2/broker.exe

3:23 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

actually Chris I have never been one to say that 'US treats Isreal like crap'.

Let me address the rest of your comment, the aid money that goes to Isreal is spent back here on military techology.

The Palestinians recieve aid from the US, if you add in what Egypt gets its more than what the aid to Isreal is.

Also, lets recall the 7 billion dollars Suha and Yassir Arafat stole from the coffers, ( read this mthes Atlantic) and all the billions of aid the Palestinians gets from the EU and the UN.

Isreal recieves no money from them.

The per capita aid dollar to Palestinians is huge, too bad Hamas, Hizbollah and Fatah have such sticky fingers.

The point of the author, and of many other people is that had the world helped address fundamentalism ( ie Hamas) BEFORE it got so widespread it would have been a good thing.

For us all.

3:28 PM  
Blogger Polka Dotted Pickles said...

Interesting stuff!

3:32 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

My correction, going to call the "author" on this. The US Spends alot of money on Isreal. And saying that the 32 Billion was for Military development back in the US, is incorrect. Probably 3/4 of that 32 billion was in the form of Military Assistance, the rest in Economic assistance.

As far as how the Isreali military spends their "aid" money, is debatable. We all know how Isreal likes to sell technology that the US has given it, to our Rivals in China. Nice payback for the $140 Billion wasted US tax dollars keeping Isreal functioning.

"Israel has a long-standing history of defense cooperation with China, and is currently, and controversially, the PRC. s second largest arms supplier."

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/israel.htm

What great friends the Israelis are. :-\

4:06 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

Um Chris, sorry to have to pop your bubble but I have to point out to you that the author, ( a professor of military history at Stanford) never says the US treats Isreal badly.

Not sure where you get that, perhaps thats wishful thinking on your part?

In any case, you are of course entitled to wish that Isreal received no aid from the US.

Its actually not US aid that 'keeps Isreal functioning'.

Not sure where you get that. Isreal's main industry is technology, medical research and agriculture.

I noticed that you prefer the 'ad hominum' debate, 'some friend Isreal is'...as opposed to answering anything about why the Palestinian Arabs are living in poverty.

Their own leaders stole their money...they had money and they supported people who took it. Speaking out against Hamas there can get you killed very fast.

This of course is not Isreal's fault or its problem. Gaza can go to Hamas or whoever. Makes no difference.

The authors point, since you clearly missed it, is that had the West seen the real issue of Islamic fundamentalism when it started it would have given us time to address it.

Before, they blew up trains in Madrid and night clubs in Bali and buildings in NY they were blowing up places like Mikes Place in Isreal.

I believe thats a valid point as do many others, if you don't get it, ok, you have your own ideas.

Its a free country. Unlike Gaza.

4:24 PM  
Blogger FoncusedYid said...

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7:58 PM  
Blogger David Ketter said...

Well, well...nicely done. Thanks for visiting my blog!

8:22 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

This is a quote from the author that I made my point on,

"Then came September 11 and the almost instant canonization of bin Laden.

Suddenly, the prior cheap shots at Israel under siege weren’t so cheap. It proved easy to castigate Israelis who went into Jenin, but not so when we needed to do the same in Fallujah.

It was easy to slander the Israelis’ scrutiny of Arabs in their midst, but then suddenly a few residents in our own country were found to be engaging in bomb making, taking up jihadist pilgrimages to Afghanistan, and mapping out terrorist operations."

Essentially, the author says that prior to September 11th, the United States castigated the Isrealis for their actions in the West Bank and Gaza (the author aluded to the United States with the Fallujah example).

However, the reality is, the United States may have publicly "castigated" Israeli tactics, but ANY grown adult knows that it comes down to money. If the US wanted to show Israel its contempt, it would have done so through stopping foreign aid.

The author fails to mention the numerous times that the security council tried to draft articles of ridicule against Israel, but the US vetoed the drafts because they failed to mention the Palestinian involvement in the hostilities.

These types of facts are often forgotten to make a point, which in turn lessens the argument.

The US did waste its breath and ruined its public image to the world by criticizing Israeli tactics in the West Bank and Gaza, while continuing to fund the Israeli war machine at full tilt. Everyone knows that money speaks louder than words.

As far as saying US aid keeps Israel afloat. Lets check the numbers again, shall we?

Israeli debt/income

revenues: $48.09 billion
expenditures: $52.11 billion, including capital expenditures of NA (2004 est.)

The above figures are including the 3.x billion dollars a year directly donated from the United States. On top of that, the aid the US gives to Israel as far as military goes, is in the form of "Finished Goods". If the US stopped giving Israel "finished military hardware", then Israel would have to develop its own military industrial complex... which it does not have the capital to do.

As far as the Palestinain situation. Why they are living in tents while their leaders get rich? That is a question I will have to look into. I am sure that it has alot to do with corruption. It also has alot to do with displacement.

The argument that Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia arent doing enough to help is irrelivant. The territorial boundaries of Israel makes the Palestinian crisis their own, not other nations problem.

However, if people would cut the BS propaganda, stick to the actual truths, and NOT try to add aditional favorable to one side drama, then the problem could go a long way to being resolved.

8:13 AM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

Hi Chris,
I do not dispute that the US gives aid to Isreal.

You clearly have a huge problem with this.

Do you have a problem with US aid to others? How about Egypt? What do we get for our money funding a huge dictatorship that tortures its citizens? Is the US losing credibility there too?

Why, may I ask with all due respect, do not not feel the same outrage that we aid Egypt. They are routinely condemned for torturing their citizens, for all sorts of human rights abuses far more horrid that haveing someone go thru a check point, yet you are not bothered.

Makes me wonder.

The standard of living in Gaza and the West Bank when compared to the rest of the Arab world far exceeds the average. Life expectancy is far higher, infant mortality far fat lower and the percentage of those who are literal is almost three times that of neighborinig Jordan.

And yes, the rest of the Arab world IS responsible since they invadeing Isreal and created the refuge crisis still in existance all these years later.

They don't help solve it since its more convient to blame it on Israel, it keeps the general population angry at the 'zionist enemy' and deflects attention from the general depravity of the regimes there.

In addition Chris to your comment that US support of Israel has 'ruined our standing in the world' I have to just shake my head.

I think Bush has done a fine job of that himself. I have read message boards of people rantint and blaming Isreal for everything from the weather to inflation but never have I heard a single person blame Isreal for the crap Bush has done until today.

Just when you think you have seen it all, something new comes along!

Good grief!

10:29 AM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

One more important point I wanted to emphasize is that its a myth that the Israeli's are to blame for all this 'Palestinian suffering'

If you want to see Arabs suffereing go to Jordan, walk the streets of Cairo, imagine what goes on in Saudi families where women are not even permitted to drive let alone leave the house without a male relative.

One key measure of overall quality of life is infant mortality rates.

Population: 5,938,093 (July 2001 est.) note: includes about 176,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, about 6,900 in the Gaza Strip, and about 173,000 in East Jerusalem (August 2000 est.)
Age structure: 0-14 years: 27.36% (male 831,523; female 792,982) 15-64 years: 62.73% (male 1,869,114; female 1,855,707) 65 years and over: 9.91% (male 253,105; female 335,662) (2001 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.58% (2001 est.)
Birth rate: 19.12 births/1,000 population (2001 est.)
Death rate: 6.22 deaths/1,000 population (2001 est.)
Net migration rate: 2.85 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2001 est.)
Sex ratio: at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female 15-64 years: 1.01 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 0.75 male(s)/female total population: 0.99 male(s)/female (2001 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 7.72 deaths/1,000 live births (2001 est.)
Life expectancy at birth: total population: 78.71 years male: 76.69 years female: 80.84 years (2001 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.57 children born/woman (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate: 0.08% (1999 est.)
HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS: 2,400 (1999 est.)
HIV/AIDS - deaths: less than 100 (1999 est.)
Nationality: noun: Israeli(s) adjective: Israeli
Ethnic groups: Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)
Religions: Jewish 80.1%, Muslim 14.6% (mostly Sunni Muslim), Christian 2.1%, other 3.2% (1996 est.)
Languages: Hebrew (official), Arabic used officially for Arab minority, English most commonly used foreign language
Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 95% male: 97% female: 93% (1992 est.)
GDP: purchasing power parity - $110.2 billion (2000 est.)
GDP - real growth rate: 5.9% (2000 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $18,900 (2000 est.)
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 4% industry: 37% services: 59% (1999 est.)
Population below poverty line: NA%
Household income or consumption by percentage share: lowest 10%: 2.8% highest 10%: 26.9% (1992)
Inflation rate (consumer prices): 0.1% (2000 est.)
Labor force: 2.4 million (2000 est.)
Labor force - by occupation: public services 31.2%, manufacturing 20.2%, finance and business 13.1%, commerce 12.8%, construction 7.5%, personal and other services 6.4%, transport, storage, and communications 6.2%, agriculture, forestry, and fishing 2.6% (1996)
Unemployment rate: 9% (2000 est.)
Budget: revenues: $40 billion expenditures: $42.4 billion, including capital expenditures of $NA (2000 est.)
Industries: high-technology projects (including aviation, communications, computer-aided design and manufactures, medical electronics), wood and paper products, potash and phosphates, food, beverages, and tobacco, caustic soda, cement, diamond cutting
Industrial production growth rate: 7% (2000)
Electricity - production: 35.437 billion kWh (1999)
Electricity - production by source: fossil fuel: 99.89% hydro: 0.11% nuclear: 0% other: 0% (1999)
Electricity - consumption: 31.899 billion kWh (1999)
Electricity - exports: 1.061 billion kWh (1999)
Fiscal year: calendar year

remember two million arabs live in Israel. And the numbers here include the OT.

10:46 AM  
Blogger Chris said...

I have a problem with the US giving aid to any country that bolsters one of our nations greatest threats. Especially when we give so much aid to Israel.

However, we do owe loyalty to Israel for their friendship during the cold war.

I have a problem with US aid to almost every country in the world, not just Israel. The US is demonized in every nation that we help, but never get any credit for what we do (including all middle eastern nations).

See, the reason I didnt mention nation X is because we arent talking about THOSE nations. We are talking about Israel, and the post about Israel. If this would have been a post about Egyption human rights, then I would talk about Egyptian human rights.

You cant justify your own bad behavior by comparing it to the bad behavior of others. The topic again, is Israel. Not Egypt.

But I do have a problem with the US proping up Dictators across the globe, for whatever reason there may be. But again, this isnt the topic.

This is untrue:

"In addition Chris to your comment that US support of Israel has 'ruined our standing in the world' I have to just shake my head."

Here is what I said,

"The US did waste its breath and ruined its public image to the world by criticizing Israeli tactics in the West Bank and Gaza, while continuing to fund the Israeli war machine at full tilt. Everyone knows that money speaks louder than words."

I said we ruined our standing in the world because we say one thing, and do another. If we are going to support Israel, we should support Israel. If we are going to criticize, then we should also put actions behind the words. Be hot or cold.

I have no special hatred for the Israelis, as much as I have no special love for the Palestinians (and vice versa). I believe they BOTH propagate their own situation. I do not believe the US should help either side. Let them solve it on their own. That means reducing the AID to both nations, and giving aid to both equally, if at all.

We have enough problems in the US that could use the Billions of dollars we give to other nations.

1:13 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

The reference to Egypt is a valid one.

Also, you were the one that blamed the crisis in human rights in Gaza and the West Bank on Israel.

Actually residents there have a much higher standing of living that anyone in neighboring nations.

Try trying to overthrow the government of Egypt and see how much fun you have in jail.

Yet, people such as yourself say Israel should recieve no aid since they are harming people.

I disagree.

They have tried again and again to make peace, only to find more war.

All the young people there have ever known is war.

Everyone has to live like a soilder.

Yet they have the to build schools and hospitals, universities that are famous for their scientific discoveries.

Arabs are welcome to attend and they do.

What are the Palestinians doing besides brainwashing their kids to blow themselves into smithereens in the name of Allah?

They have to accept responsibility.

Isreal is leaving Gaza and putting up a big fence. Let them stay there and blow each other up for a change.

2:39 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

The Egyptian one is not a valid one. Its irrational.

I guess being a fanatic is irrational though.

If you think criticism is "hatred" than you are a fanatic.

I never blamed Israel for the "crisis on human rights". Here is what I said.

"The argument that Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia arent doing enough to help is irrelivant. The territorial boundaries of Israel makes the Palestinian crisis their own, not other nations problem."

I also never said Israel should recieve aid because they are "harming people". I said they should stop recieving aid for aiding our Adversaries, the Chineese, which you CONVIENANTLY forget to address, at all. I also believe we should not be giving aid because it has not produced any results.

Callie, in your support for Israel, you are a fanatic. When you believe your nation can do no wrong, you become a nationalist, a fanatic.

3:04 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

Ding! Ding! Ding!

And the blog crowd roars!!

You lost! I won!

You started to call me names and engage in ad hominum arguements!

That signals defeat in debate!

I am wrong because I am a 'fanatic' or a 'nationalist'.

Thats as ad hominum as it gets, Chris no question here now, be a good sport, you lost.

Leave me a nice note on my tag board admitting defeat and all is well.

You are a fun debater tho, but I have to say, I am MUCH better.

:+}

3:10 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

Alright fine, I did over step. My bad. But I will not concede defeat. :-P

3:21 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

bwa ha ha!!!!

3:39 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

While I did step on my foot in this post, I could have worded by argument a little bit more in a round about way to have made the same point. :-P

I wouldnt say that you are better debater since you are quite in accurate in quoting your opponent. but fun none the less.

3:58 PM  
Blogger callieischatty said...

I agree, I did misquote you.

Thats a place I can work on in my debating for sure.

Plus I should be better at specific data.


I don't think that Israel is always right. Every country including the US makes mistakes.

But basically they have done a great job of surviving in a hostile environment.

I guess that the point i was trying to make is that its just one country, like any other, its not the source of the worlds ills.

Thats the UN position. Its not the cause of the US's problems or the reason we went to Iraq.

I know alot of Israeli's and they are all really against the war in Iraq since it destablizing the region.

They are way more upset about Iran's nuclear threat than Saddam's bluster.

Things in Iraq will no doubt be worse now.

And its not Isreal's fault.

4:45 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

If people believe that the US went to Iraq because of Israel... they are pretty diluted. King Bush holds hands with King of Saud.. er President of Saud... oh man... I forget who thinks their king anymore. Aka. its all about the oil, and revenge.

I guess I just dont see the all anti-semitism that you do. Maybe its because I dont look for it, or maybe its because I am not a victim of it. I was raised to believe that anti-semitism is dead/dying/and not PC. I was also taught that slavery is dead... I guess I was mistaught.

I may not agree with some actions of Israel, as well as I dont agree with many of my own nations actions. I do acknowledge that there are many people that wish to do harm to Israel for events in the past.

I do admire the steps Sharon has taken to bring the peace. Now the PLO needs to capitalize on the momentum and destroy Islamic Jihand and Hamas, even if only to cement power for themselves.

3:06 PM  

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